Insulating an Ecoshell

[Domebuilder]

Old question, but still curious if any new ideas have come forth.

Building Ecoshells in India. Built 13 over the years, mostly in the South requiring no insulation.

Now being asked to quote a resort at 3200 meters (10,500 feet), but to make it 3 seasons, it needs insulation.

Here’s my thought.

Spray 3/4in of M10 concrete, cure.

Attach PU sheets with measured slits to account for curvature using stainless concrete anchors using threaded rods. Hold PU sheets in place with oversized washers every 8-10 inches and bend over the leftover rods into U shapes to hold the basalt rope grid in place. Then spray another 3/4 inches over that.

There is little tear out danger to the anchors once everything is sprayed in.

David had suggested that I put the PU on the outside, but protection against the elements becomes an issue. I had suggested it, but the client is not for it.

I can push the issue, since he trusts me, I had built him a double dome servant quarter on the outskirts of Delhi and he and they loved it.

What to do? Suggestions are welcome.

They will be using high efficiency rocket stoves for heating, but I told Thakur that a very small heater will work. Let’s see….

[Domebuilder]

I am familiar, the only ones who will spray PUF are 6 hours + away in Delhi and will only spray 6000ft² minimum and the charge a bomb.
Appreciate the reply. Thank you.

Peter A. Tower

+91 897 959 1711

(WhatsApp same #)

Sorry, you weren’t talking PUF, but I don’t think the others are feasible. Thanks for the suggestions though, appreciated.

[rsouth]

Monolithic Domes will always be the easier and better way to build and last longer that trying to make an insulated EcoShell. Why not build a standard Monolthic Dome in this case?

[Domebuilder]

Rebecca Dear;
I have been fighting perceptions in India now for 20 years. I am tired of doing so. As an example, when I met the Chief Engineer of Delhi, in his office prior to the Commonwealth Games, surrounded by 6-7 sycophants, and there are always sycophants here, I proposed an Indoor, multi-functional Monolithic Dome used for different sports. He asked me how many people it could seat, and I replied that depending on size upto 30,000 people. His reply was that he could seat 60,000 since in India they would gladly share one seat. Lots of laughter ensued. Most were Western educated. I realized then that this was a very long uphill battle.
In India, contracts go to connected people, sharing similar political parties and to penetrate that was impossible for a (Ghora), a foreigner, white person with an idea. Party affiliations, under hand handshakes, kick backs, substandard building, etc. If a concrete mix specifies 4 bags of concrete, 2 will be used, so the contractor will use the excess on another project.
When I ran 3 call centers here, and tried to do this part-time, we managed to build 13 Ecoshells. We had 5 guys. Taught them how to use a circular saw, instead of a hand saw for everything. They picked up very fast. No lack of intelligence or effort. The first one took 11 days, then 7, then 4 for the three.Teaching ringbeam forming, steel placement, accuracy in grid work, etc. Then they beautifully executed 9 more, including some joined domes we did for the equivalent of the Green Berets, in India that are name the Black Cats. They did not care about politics, only functionality. I loved it.
Then I got screwed by two “business” partners, one of whom claimed that the 10ft, 20ft and 32ft airforms, the peristalic pump, generator and air pump were stolen from the “secure” storage they were kept in, and claimed the insurance on them.
Then I trusted a well known “Christian” who, after 3 weeks of training his crew, stopped paying me a minimum salary and left me and my wife, high and dry.
I lost my appetite for doing this here.
As David Sr. and I discussed at length, India is the perfect place on the planet for Ecoshells, and I agree completely. I have a repaired pelvis, repaired femur but I am embarking on yet another effort to build a little 3 dome Ecoshell resort in the foothills of the Himalayas. Thakur has more money than sense. But I have been educating him, and it might work, we will see. I am 71, limping permanently with an Indian wife of 18 years who thinks I am nuts. But when I spoke with your Dad in 2005, he lit a fire that ha not been quenched, so one more adventure, before I lay down my sword.
Lengthy comment. But 2 strong Kingfisher beers make me ramble.
My very best to you and your family. I do admired the Patriach and his views. I miss him terribly. Love to you all.
Sorry to be maudlin…

Peter A. Tower

+91 897 959 1711

(WhatsApp same #)

[rsouth]

Peter,

What a frustrating tale. What you created in the Hyderabad desert has always been one of my favorite projects. I miss dad and wish he were around to pick his brain or just watch him talk about domes. I remember how fun it was for him to teach your crew how to build the tall ecoshells!

Tell me more about the climate where you are hoping to build the resort!

[Domebuilder]

Dearest Rebecca;
I wish I could take credit for New Auroville, which was conceived and built by an ex Microsoft guy. My understanding is that he still owed David Sr. some money for equipment that was sent.
Oroville,WA is where Microsoft was based.
He wanted to develope software for cell phones and he didn’t get very far, since he was competing against Apple and Google. I met him and his wife in Delhi and communicated fairly frequently with him. They left India and, last I heard, he founded a consulting company back in the States.
My projects were done by a small crew and one investor/partner while I was setting up and training call centers full time.
On your old website, there was a small story about what I was doing in India.
We built 13 of the 20ft Ecoshells, either singly or joined, in some cases, until my partner apparently lost interest.
All of the airforms, 10’, 20’ and 32’ as well as genset, Monolithic pump, etc. were in storage under his control, until it was mysteriously robbed. His guard was apparently missing that night.
That was in 2006 and I had had enough of being cheated. In 2007, I met and later married an Indian woman who was deadset against my building domes and getting screwed again. So I became an advisor to the Chairman of the largest land owner in the National Capitol Region of Delhi, my wife’s family friend. When my stepson died of a brain aneurysm in my arms, we fled Delhi and came to her parents house back in Dehradun.
My ex boss ran a large charity organization with a branch in the N. India state of Uttarakhand and I ran it for 13 years until I retired.

This is where we live. We have replaced our rusted roof long ago.
https://youtu.be/MvTl_FDEI-M?si=9qkjEVl1KxMO8eB7

This is the charity I worked for
norasolomon.in

Despite my wife’s wishes, I have never abandoned the dream that David Sr. and I shared. A dome is a singularly appropriate structure for India’s climate.
My friend is only asking for advice, so far, on how to build 3 or 4 resort domes along a road that gets over a million cars passing to the famous Kempty Falls, past Mussoorie, the “Queen of Hills” since British times. We live just below her. Behind you when you watch the video.
No AC required in summer, an occasional heater in Winter, and in less than one hour on winding roads, we are at 4,300m (14,100ft).
Tigers, Leopards, Bears, Deer, Lizards, Foxes, Eagles, Cobras, etc. have all passed through our village, or live in the Sal trees forest jungle around us.
Due to the phenomenal growth of Dehradun and a new expressway linking us to Delhi, 3 hours away, land prices where we live, have gone through the roof! Everybody who can wants to flee the most polluted city on earth, if they can.
Rampant land mafia and governmental corruption is prevalent, but it comes with living in India. It is incredibly pervasive, from the smallest farmer to the Chief Minister and cannot be avoided. India could really be something if the mindset could be changed…
Anyway, he stated long-windedly, let’s see how this resort idea will go, due to its location, it will be self-advertising.

Peter A. Tower

+91 897 959 1711

(WhatsApp same #)

[Mike]

Hi Peter, I know I’m late to the party. Insulating eco shells was a huge project we did about 15 years ago with my Dad pushing us to try some different formulas. We built a series of eco shells, all of them started with the structural concrete dome, then we added insulation elements to the exterior.

I will try and publish the chart that we made so that you can review in more detail, but here is the upshot:

First, remember that this was a singular test in the Texas heat. Each ecoshell was built, had an insulated plywood door screwed to the front, and a cataloguing thermometer placed inside. The results were measured and then compared. We didn’t do any follow up cold weather heating.

We tried multiple coatings, but split them into two major categories. Insulated concrete and reflective coatings. In the Texas heat, reflective coatings won the race.

Regrind styrofoam was the one that Dad hoped would work well. We made all kinds of mixer loads of this stuff, both reground chunks of various sizes, as well as the spherical styrofoam beads.

For the reflective coatings we did a few. We did some roof coatings with the titanium dioxide that everyone brags about, and we did lime wash. Both of these outperformed the styrofoam, but the lime wash was by for the best.

The lime wash was incredible. Kept the dome almost 10 degrees cooler inside, and was by far the cheapest in terms of materials. We actually had a lime wash expert come out and teach us to coat the dome, and it was super time consuming. We had to give it 10 or 12 THIN coats, keep it hydrated so that it could cure properly. The results were remarkable.

The downside with lime wash is that it washed away. We didn’t re-coat it once a year as directed and now the ecoshell is back to grey.

I will try to get the chart published so you can review the data points.

[Domebuilder]

I appreciate the response, David.
Since we are building at 1500m on a North facing slope, my concern is less about heat gain in summer. Everybody in Delhi runs to Mussourie in the summer for the cool air, comparatively.
An Australian designed some extremely efficient rocket stoves, cast iron, which for our modest size will cost $350 and he manufactures them in India.
We decided to glue 2in EPS panels, scarfed on the back every 16in, smaller as we go up.
First 1 1/2in of M20 grade concrete, sprayed on with a rented concrete sprayer, not as nice as the 1500 I had from you in Delhi to spray the triple domes, but it will do.
Followed by 6mm braided basalt rope on 8in squares, then the EPS secured with foam glue, secured with 2 3/4 hammer pins. Then another network of 12in squares of basalt to pressure hold the EPS in place.
Last another 1in of concrete smoothed down.
With the smallest rocket stove they make, it will be boiling inside, which we may not need.
At that altitude, solar gain is very high, and we are installing solar panel arrays with automatic switching between grid and battery inverter, as needed. So very small heaters may be sufficient, but we don’t know that yet.
I will keep you apprised as we go, since we will document the entire installation.
Thank you for the response, it’s appreciated.
(We are going Mongolian…)

Peter A. Tower
Speech Impediment
Written Communication Only, Please.

[Domebuilder]

I am also looking at Lotusan paint which is highly reflective and due to its tiny bumps, sheds dirt like a lotus leaf. Expensive, but highly durable.

Peter A. Tower
Speech Impediment
Written Communication Only, Please.

[Domebuilder]

I am soliciting comments on this floorplan. Altitude 4,500 ft in North India, Mussourie.
Ideas:
Row of 6 20ft dia Ecoshells
Alternating, stepping up and down a slope to provide privacy.

Initial shell 1.5in of concrete.
8in grid of 6mm braided basalt rope.

16in ringbeam, we are in a Zone 5 earthquake zone here and overdue.

2in EPS sheathing, scarfed 1in deep on the underside to allow for curvature glued to the concrete and fixed with 2.5 in SS pin anchors with large SS washers
at 12in basalt grid pattern to hold the EPS against the concrete.

Another 1in layer of shotcrete concrete.

Bathroom hot water via an LPG 10L instant hot water heater fed by a manifold from a common 500kg LPG tank.

Inlet air and combusted air are both isolated to the outside to/from the heater, CO buildup not allowed.

Automatic exhaust fan which switches on when heater does (just in case), and for moisture venting.

Using PEX-A tubing, buried underground at 16in for LPG and 10,000L water supply tank, which will be insulated.

All piping double insulated.

Data:
Graco foaming gear is in Delhi, 240km away and these domes do not meet their minimum square spraying footage, and is hyper expensive, otherwise I would have used them.

Labourers are untrained, but we will be creating short videos on every single function as well as annotated photo flip books with exact dimensions etc. all in Hindi.

Ministry of Tourism in Uttarakhand (where I live) is highly interested and will have observers on-site for the build out. They want the locals in the mountains to be able to build these themselves, with supervision and use off grid LPG and solar. They are intimately familiar with those, since almost everybody uses government subsidized panels and inverters.

I would really appreciate your comments and advice.

Simple floorplan attached, since I cannot afford a 3D SketchUp plan, this one was jury rigged together in 2D.(As I am sure you can tell instantly!)

The rocket stove has outside air feed and exhaust and CO buildup will be monitored.

All lighting is LED, since power outages are frequent, and are fed by solar inverter.

Site picture (the white tips in the background are the Indian Himalayas)

Thank you for your ideas!

Peter A. Tower